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	<title>Comments on: Defining the Church as Corporate Is Unbiblical</title>
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		<title>By: Brian Martineau</title>
		<link>http://www.kanisafellowship.com/defining-the-church-as-corporate-is-unbiblical/comment-page-1/#comment-730</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Martineau</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 07:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kanisafellowship.com/?p=312#comment-730</guid>
		<description>I believe that it is important for us to understand the nature of the western corporation. The following film does a good job in revealing this. http://www.thecorporation.com/index.cfm?page_id=312
I also believe though that the dominant socio-economic system of opportunistic capital accumulation is a great factor in the corruption and cruelty within the corporate mindset. I believe it is also important to note that prophecy and logic has been borne out in recent years and we can see that the dominant status-quo business model and corporate paradigm is doomed!

We must remember that we are in the world but we are not of it. We deal with money, we are organized, we promote, we employ, we pay, etc... but we don&#039;t have to be AIG, Halliburton or JM Asbestos.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe that it is important for us to understand the nature of the western corporation. The following film does a good job in revealing this. <a href="http://www.thecorporation.com/index.cfm?page_id=312" rel="nofollow">http://www.thecorporation.com/index.cfm?page_id=312</a><br />
I also believe though that the dominant socio-economic system of opportunistic capital accumulation is a great factor in the corruption and cruelty within the corporate mindset. I believe it is also important to note that prophecy and logic has been borne out in recent years and we can see that the dominant status-quo business model and corporate paradigm is doomed!</p>
<p>We must remember that we are in the world but we are not of it. We deal with money, we are organized, we promote, we employ, we pay, etc&#8230; but we don&#8217;t have to be AIG, Halliburton or JM Asbestos.</p>
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		<title>By: Motse</title>
		<link>http://www.kanisafellowship.com/defining-the-church-as-corporate-is-unbiblical/comment-page-1/#comment-641</link>
		<dc:creator>Motse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 03:41:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kanisafellowship.com/?p=312#comment-641</guid>
		<description>I’m not to sure if defining the church as a corporation biblical or not, one thing I know though is that it’s been like that for a long time; churches are organized and registered as corporations. The biggest question for me is &quot;How effective are we as a business&quot; or rather why are we not as effective as good business, part of the reason is that we still wrestle with defining ourselves as a corporation in the first place even though we might be registered as one. There are certainly certain qualities about corporation that we as a church don’t like.  

I will agree that churches ought to be run with sound financial practices and we ought to be efficient and care about effectiveness, but there are crucial differences between business and the church. Business exist only for one purpose and that is to make &quot;MONEY&quot; while churches on the other hand exist  to point people to Jesus

To understand and appreciate the reluctance that exists out there in completely defining church as corporation, one needs to understand the following points:

•	Marketing defined as the performance of business activities which direct the flow of goods and services from producer to consumer or user in order to satisfy customers and accomplish the company’s objectives.”

•	 Marketing looks  at business by breaking it down into the Four P’s of Marketing: Product, Price, Place, and Promotion, and the biggest question in marketing usually revolves around which of these four variables  can we adjust to gain a higher share of our market? This is done basically as in business marketing by survey and research techniques to determine just what people want.

•	 Just as a business adjusts their marketing mix of product, price, promotion and place, any church that solely defines itself as a corporation will have to adjust the four P’s. Adjust what the product looks like: make it pragmatic, non-offensive, i.e. preach and teach what they want to hear or more realistically, what they will tolerate.  Likewise, modify the demands, the price of sacrifice of self-sacrifice of needs, wants, time, talent, confession of truth, etc. Finally, promote its plans based on the research and planning and preparation on the given market situations. 

•	Corporations are notorious for not handling failure well; very quick to discard anyone within them that do not promote their agenda.  Should this be the approach that is adopted by the church as well with regards to those who in leadership or not misbehaves for a lack of a better word. 

The biggest question then for the church that solely defines itself as a corporation becomes: “should we be trying to satisfy people’s needs for a church? Should they be the final determiners and definers of what God would have us to be His people? Paul’s take on the subject is found in Galatians 1:10:  For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I’m not to sure if defining the church as a corporation biblical or not, one thing I know though is that it’s been like that for a long time; churches are organized and registered as corporations. The biggest question for me is &#8220;How effective are we as a business&#8221; or rather why are we not as effective as good business, part of the reason is that we still wrestle with defining ourselves as a corporation in the first place even though we might be registered as one. There are certainly certain qualities about corporation that we as a church don’t like.  </p>
<p>I will agree that churches ought to be run with sound financial practices and we ought to be efficient and care about effectiveness, but there are crucial differences between business and the church. Business exist only for one purpose and that is to make &#8220;MONEY&#8221; while churches on the other hand exist  to point people to Jesus</p>
<p>To understand and appreciate the reluctance that exists out there in completely defining church as corporation, one needs to understand the following points:</p>
<p>•	Marketing defined as the performance of business activities which direct the flow of goods and services from producer to consumer or user in order to satisfy customers and accomplish the company’s objectives.”</p>
<p>•	 Marketing looks  at business by breaking it down into the Four P’s of Marketing: Product, Price, Place, and Promotion, and the biggest question in marketing usually revolves around which of these four variables  can we adjust to gain a higher share of our market? This is done basically as in business marketing by survey and research techniques to determine just what people want.</p>
<p>•	 Just as a business adjusts their marketing mix of product, price, promotion and place, any church that solely defines itself as a corporation will have to adjust the four P’s. Adjust what the product looks like: make it pragmatic, non-offensive, i.e. preach and teach what they want to hear or more realistically, what they will tolerate.  Likewise, modify the demands, the price of sacrifice of self-sacrifice of needs, wants, time, talent, confession of truth, etc. Finally, promote its plans based on the research and planning and preparation on the given market situations. </p>
<p>•	Corporations are notorious for not handling failure well; very quick to discard anyone within them that do not promote their agenda.  Should this be the approach that is adopted by the church as well with regards to those who in leadership or not misbehaves for a lack of a better word. </p>
<p>The biggest question then for the church that solely defines itself as a corporation becomes: “should we be trying to satisfy people’s needs for a church? Should they be the final determiners and definers of what God would have us to be His people? Paul’s take on the subject is found in Galatians 1:10:  For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.”</p>
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		<title>By: Andon</title>
		<link>http://www.kanisafellowship.com/defining-the-church-as-corporate-is-unbiblical/comment-page-1/#comment-640</link>
		<dc:creator>Andon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 21:23:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kanisafellowship.com/?p=312#comment-640</guid>
		<description>Great discussion.  Although I lack credentials, I’d like to throw in my two cents here, if I may.

There is no disputing that churches are formed businesses.  The early Adventist church actually debated whether they should take this step or not.  Though some had concerns, it deemed it necessary to buy land, status, etc.  I’m not suggesting that was a mistake, but it wasn’t the initial intention, or motivation.

Elements such as vision, planning, development, goal-setting, leadership, auditing, accountability, and transparency, to name a few, are all necessary for a business to work.  These principles also benefit families, and even individuals, who are so forward-thinking to apply them to their own personal lives.  That’s not the main issue here.

From my [limited life] experience, whenever we bring up business comparisons in church, it’s usually in an effort to hold other people accountable for their performance, or lack thereof.  In businesses, people get fired after poor performance evaluations, demoted for poor productivity, not working according to the mandate.  Families operate differently.  That doesn’t mean mediocrity should be accepted, aimed for, and celebrated.  It just means we use the same BIBLICAL business principles the way that Christ did.  In love.

Christ was a businessman, and from age 12, He clearly stated He was about His Father’s business. (Lk. 2:49)  Yet, He clearly pointed out the differences between the way the world’s business operated, and how God’s operated (Mt. 18:23-35, Mt. 20:1-16, Lk. 16:1-8).

That, I believe, is the key issue.  There’s no problem with churches being businesses, as long as we’re operating the way that Christ would, did, and wants to do through us.  He wants us to put more faith in Him than we do in business models.

Consider the nation of Israel in 1 Samuel 8.  God’s people had much to complain about, and rightfully so.  Samuel’s sons were not living up to their mandate, and needed to be held accountable!  However, the people’s motivation in asking for a king was so they would be like the other nations. (v. 5)  They put more faith in a system, model, or whatever the issue was here, more than God, and in the process rejected God’s leadership. (v. 7)  The result was king Saul, who started out well, but put more stalk in pleasing his clientele than pleasing God.  David, his successor, was the opposite, following God when others cowered.  Yet even he didn’t try to help God out when Saul was obviously in the wrong.  He knew which battles to fight.

I happen to work for the Conference myself, but tithes and offerings don’t keep me employed.  God does, just like He does for all of us, no matter our occupation.  He also does the performance review.  He wants us all to be ready for that.  Let’s prayerfully hold each other accountable as He would have us, so that we’ll be the complete Body of Christ that He can, and the world will, recognize.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great discussion.  Although I lack credentials, I’d like to throw in my two cents here, if I may.</p>
<p>There is no disputing that churches are formed businesses.  The early Adventist church actually debated whether they should take this step or not.  Though some had concerns, it deemed it necessary to buy land, status, etc.  I’m not suggesting that was a mistake, but it wasn’t the initial intention, or motivation.</p>
<p>Elements such as vision, planning, development, goal-setting, leadership, auditing, accountability, and transparency, to name a few, are all necessary for a business to work.  These principles also benefit families, and even individuals, who are so forward-thinking to apply them to their own personal lives.  That’s not the main issue here.</p>
<p>From my [limited life] experience, whenever we bring up business comparisons in church, it’s usually in an effort to hold other people accountable for their performance, or lack thereof.  In businesses, people get fired after poor performance evaluations, demoted for poor productivity, not working according to the mandate.  Families operate differently.  That doesn’t mean mediocrity should be accepted, aimed for, and celebrated.  It just means we use the same BIBLICAL business principles the way that Christ did.  In love.</p>
<p>Christ was a businessman, and from age 12, He clearly stated He was about His Father’s business. (Lk. 2:49)  Yet, He clearly pointed out the differences between the way the world’s business operated, and how God’s operated (Mt. 18:23-35, Mt. 20:1-16, Lk. 16:1-8).</p>
<p>That, I believe, is the key issue.  There’s no problem with churches being businesses, as long as we’re operating the way that Christ would, did, and wants to do through us.  He wants us to put more faith in Him than we do in business models.</p>
<p>Consider the nation of Israel in 1 Samuel 8.  God’s people had much to complain about, and rightfully so.  Samuel’s sons were not living up to their mandate, and needed to be held accountable!  However, the people’s motivation in asking for a king was so they would be like the other nations. (v. 5)  They put more faith in a system, model, or whatever the issue was here, more than God, and in the process rejected God’s leadership. (v. 7)  The result was king Saul, who started out well, but put more stalk in pleasing his clientele than pleasing God.  David, his successor, was the opposite, following God when others cowered.  Yet even he didn’t try to help God out when Saul was obviously in the wrong.  He knew which battles to fight.</p>
<p>I happen to work for the Conference myself, but tithes and offerings don’t keep me employed.  God does, just like He does for all of us, no matter our occupation.  He also does the performance review.  He wants us all to be ready for that.  Let’s prayerfully hold each other accountable as He would have us, so that we’ll be the complete Body of Christ that He can, and the world will, recognize.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Picart</title>
		<link>http://www.kanisafellowship.com/defining-the-church-as-corporate-is-unbiblical/comment-page-1/#comment-639</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Picart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 13:06:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kanisafellowship.com/?p=312#comment-639</guid>
		<description>Let me begin my comments by stating a few things that I believe to be true so that all my cards are on the table.

1.	I am a Christian and I believe that church is a business.  (I feel like I am at an AA meeting introducing myself.  LOL)

2.	I am not afraid to mix money, ministry, marketing and measurable results in a bowl and pour it out into a container called “church”.

There.  I feel so much better now.  Churches are businesses.  They are formed as businesses which are legally registered and provide goods and/or services to consumers [insert “members” so you don’t have a heart attack].  

We just don’t pay taxes.  So we are a publically funded business at that.  The public in fact knows all of our financial business because it’s online.  SEE: _

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/ebci/haip/srch/t3010returnlist-eng.action?b=107797383RR0120&amp;n=KANISA+FELLOWSHIP+SEVENTH-DAY+ADVENTIST+CHURCH&amp;r=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cra-arc.gc.ca%3A80%2Febci%2Fhaip%2Fsrch%2Fbasicsearchresult-eng.action%3Fs%3D%2B%26amp%3Bk%3Dkanisa%26amp%3Bp%3D1%26amp%3Bb%3Dtrue


Like any business, we need to ensure that there are certain properties that exist in order to advance the business plan to meet our goals.

A plan. A leader/leadership. A sales/marketing strategy. A target market. A finally…….a great product or service.  Quite simple.

Jesus had all of these things in His business.  He even did demonstrations.  The problem I have with select churches, including the ones I regularly attend, is that they are reluctant to be held to accountability outside of soft parameter of “trying to reach one soul”.  Most CEO’s of churches [read Pastors] have never taken a business course, don’t invest in sales and marketing and surround themselves with individuals who will polish the throne of their calling.  Harsh words.  But, often true.  I just don’t buy into it.

If there was no tithing model that forced people to give, most Pastors would be in the soup line downtown somewhere.  Why?  Because the delivery of their product is horrendous and there is no added value in their particular franchise of the gospel.

Churches are business.  They need money to survive.  They need good people to lead and follow.  They need a plan.  A real plan with steps and accomplishments.  Not pie in the sky, feathers in the air, hocus pokus, spiritual mumble jumble that sounds great to the average church member.  A detailed plan that others can see and follow and even change along the way.

The secret sauce is the Holy Spirit.  No doubt.  Every business, church or not, has access to that.  The grunt work is left for us to work out in an orderly fashion with accountability and integrity.

Oh, before I forget.  I wanted to address the line about church being a family.  We are a family.  So high, we can’t get over that.  Without a successful business plan and a winning church, we are individuals looking for another family to join.  No one likes to be a righteous loser because Jesus wasn’t one.

By the way, the worldwide SDA church collects over 1.5 billion bucks a year and employs thousands.  The Ontario Conference collected 100 million in four years and employs 3 auditors and 6 accounting staff.  More than their evangelism department.  Don’t be fooled.  This is a business.  Big time.

With clarity and respect,

Richard Picart
Twitter – Facebook – Myspace – LinkedIn

We just don’t pay taxes.  So we are a publically funded business at that.  The public in fact knows all of our financial business because it’s online.  SEE: http://www.tiny.cc/kanisataxes</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me begin my comments by stating a few things that I believe to be true so that all my cards are on the table.</p>
<p>1.	I am a Christian and I believe that church is a business.  (I feel like I am at an AA meeting introducing myself.  LOL)</p>
<p>2.	I am not afraid to mix money, ministry, marketing and measurable results in a bowl and pour it out into a container called “church”.</p>
<p>There.  I feel so much better now.  Churches are businesses.  They are formed as businesses which are legally registered and provide goods and/or services to consumers [insert “members” so you don’t have a heart attack].  </p>
<p>We just don’t pay taxes.  So we are a publically funded business at that.  The public in fact knows all of our financial business because it’s online.  SEE: _</p>
<p><a href="http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/ebci/haip/srch/t3010returnlist-eng.action?b=107797383RR0120&amp;n=KANISA+FELLOWSHIP+SEVENTH-DAY+ADVENTIST+CHURCH&amp;r=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cra-arc.gc.ca%3A80%2Febci%2Fhaip%2Fsrch%2Fbasicsearchresult-eng.action%3Fs%3D%2B%26amp%3Bk%3Dkanisa%26amp%3Bp%3D1%26amp%3Bb%3Dtrue" rel="nofollow">http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/ebci/haip/srch/t3010returnlist-eng.action?b=107797383RR0120&amp;n=KANISA+FELLOWSHIP+SEVENTH-DAY+ADVENTIST+CHURCH&amp;r=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cra-arc.gc.ca%3A80%2Febci%2Fhaip%2Fsrch%2Fbasicsearchresult-eng.action%3Fs%3D%2B%26amp%3Bk%3Dkanisa%26amp%3Bp%3D1%26amp%3Bb%3Dtrue</a></p>
<p>Like any business, we need to ensure that there are certain properties that exist in order to advance the business plan to meet our goals.</p>
<p>A plan. A leader/leadership. A sales/marketing strategy. A target market. A finally…….a great product or service.  Quite simple.</p>
<p>Jesus had all of these things in His business.  He even did demonstrations.  The problem I have with select churches, including the ones I regularly attend, is that they are reluctant to be held to accountability outside of soft parameter of “trying to reach one soul”.  Most CEO’s of churches [read Pastors] have never taken a business course, don’t invest in sales and marketing and surround themselves with individuals who will polish the throne of their calling.  Harsh words.  But, often true.  I just don’t buy into it.</p>
<p>If there was no tithing model that forced people to give, most Pastors would be in the soup line downtown somewhere.  Why?  Because the delivery of their product is horrendous and there is no added value in their particular franchise of the gospel.</p>
<p>Churches are business.  They need money to survive.  They need good people to lead and follow.  They need a plan.  A real plan with steps and accomplishments.  Not pie in the sky, feathers in the air, hocus pokus, spiritual mumble jumble that sounds great to the average church member.  A detailed plan that others can see and follow and even change along the way.</p>
<p>The secret sauce is the Holy Spirit.  No doubt.  Every business, church or not, has access to that.  The grunt work is left for us to work out in an orderly fashion with accountability and integrity.</p>
<p>Oh, before I forget.  I wanted to address the line about church being a family.  We are a family.  So high, we can’t get over that.  Without a successful business plan and a winning church, we are individuals looking for another family to join.  No one likes to be a righteous loser because Jesus wasn’t one.</p>
<p>By the way, the worldwide SDA church collects over 1.5 billion bucks a year and employs thousands.  The Ontario Conference collected 100 million in four years and employs 3 auditors and 6 accounting staff.  More than their evangelism department.  Don’t be fooled.  This is a business.  Big time.</p>
<p>With clarity and respect,</p>
<p>Richard Picart<br />
Twitter – Facebook – Myspace – LinkedIn</p>
<p>We just don’t pay taxes.  So we are a publically funded business at that.  The public in fact knows all of our financial business because it’s online.  SEE: <a href="http://www.tiny.cc/kanisataxes" rel="nofollow">http://www.tiny.cc/kanisataxes</a></p>
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		<title>By: Len</title>
		<link>http://www.kanisafellowship.com/defining-the-church-as-corporate-is-unbiblical/comment-page-1/#comment-637</link>
		<dc:creator>Len</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 15:55:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kanisafellowship.com/?p=312#comment-637</guid>
		<description>The argument in the article starts out well and I agree that no single metaphor will adequately describe the Kingdom of God. No metaphor is a perfect illustration. Therefore, our understanding of Jesus&#039; teaching is formed by the collective of the many metaphors and/or parables He used. Christ used the ordinary things that people understood to teach lessons that they did not.   
Like any other symbol the corporate metaphor is not a perfect illustration but can teach many lessons to those who are familiar with corporate/business language, methods, and strategies. The successes of the corporate world in Marketing, Planning, Goal Setting, Human Resource Development, and Management are not divorced from biblical principles. The church could learn much by observing how the business world has transformed biblical principles into success, while many churches are floundering around in confusion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The argument in the article starts out well and I agree that no single metaphor will adequately describe the Kingdom of God. No metaphor is a perfect illustration. Therefore, our understanding of Jesus&#8217; teaching is formed by the collective of the many metaphors and/or parables He used. Christ used the ordinary things that people understood to teach lessons that they did not.<br />
Like any other symbol the corporate metaphor is not a perfect illustration but can teach many lessons to those who are familiar with corporate/business language, methods, and strategies. The successes of the corporate world in Marketing, Planning, Goal Setting, Human Resource Development, and Management are not divorced from biblical principles. The church could learn much by observing how the business world has transformed biblical principles into success, while many churches are floundering around in confusion.</p>
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		<title>By: Pastor Tai Paschall</title>
		<link>http://www.kanisafellowship.com/defining-the-church-as-corporate-is-unbiblical/comment-page-1/#comment-636</link>
		<dc:creator>Pastor Tai Paschall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 21:39:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kanisafellowship.com/?p=312#comment-636</guid>
		<description>I think that we are long overdue for a re-definition of the church. This is the conversation that began the reformation and the protestant movement. The problem is that we stopped protesting. The first step is to stop defining ourselves by our personalities, worship styles, denominations, and attractions. We need to release people into God world, not hold them in are four walls. Ministry is about movement. It is something liquid. Church is simply an extension of the kingdom of God with His people, where ever they are. Let&#039;s help each over move toward this calling

CHURCH!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that we are long overdue for a re-definition of the church. This is the conversation that began the reformation and the protestant movement. The problem is that we stopped protesting. The first step is to stop defining ourselves by our personalities, worship styles, denominations, and attractions. We need to release people into God world, not hold them in are four walls. Ministry is about movement. It is something liquid. Church is simply an extension of the kingdom of God with His people, where ever they are. Let&#8217;s help each over move toward this calling</p>
<p>CHURCH!</p>
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